Below is a transcript for our podcast episode - please note, this is an automated transcript, so there will be some errors!
To listen to the episode, click here
[00:00:00] spk_0: do you find that? Sometimes people just seem to wind you up or pigment you angry? Maybe if you're in a relationship, your partner makes you really angry sometimes or upset. Or if you're looking for that so relationship that you really want to have in your life, Sometimes you think what people just don't find you attractive. You kind of feel you feel insecure. Did they going to be exploring cognitive behavioural therapy and how that can help you understand your reactions and change your reactions so you can improve your relationships and improve your chance of finding the relationship that you really want in your life. If you don't find out more about banking and preview relationships, head over to the relationship maze dot com, where we have lots of free [00:00:42] spk_1: resources. [00:00:43] spk_0: We also have our online relationship course to help you create a relationship that you deserve. Welcome to this week's mind Body on relationship Maze Manage Tom Akai today what can be exploring how copies of behavioural therapy can help you improve your relationships? [00:01:09] spk_1: Yeah, so what is it? What is cognitive behaviour therapy? It's also called CBT on You might have heard about There's lots in the press written about CBT in the UK, for example, CBT is used. The is the predominant form or therapy that you would experience if you go through the suggests and you get some some therapy. So yeah, What is it? Talk. Do you want to [00:01:30] spk_0: talk us through? Well, actually, before we get to go, what into his What isthe is like, you know, you have some real experiences, like, you know, I should listen here. Do you have a kind of have that experience where you think they make me so angry? Yeah. Yeah, You kind of many? Yes. I get that sometimes. Or why? Why did they do that? So annoying? I think they're just being disrespectful. [00:01:53] spk_1: Yeah, well, somebody and they don't like me or they're just exactly the way that behaviour is really [00:01:58] spk_0: out of order. Yeah, we feel upset, and it's like other people make us upset. Other people make us angry or other people kind of maker's feeling secure on, But actually, what's really going on is this missing middle piece. So we often think that your events make us feel a certain way. But actually it's something else. It's a thing that goes on in the middle, which is the thought that thought is the thing that causes us to feel a certain way. And when I became aware of this process, what you can do is you can start to have more control over how you react on a quotes that Aldous Huxley once wrote on a slight variation off. This just in terms of something for a mound, so just very little bit is experience is not what happens to a person. It's what it's what a person does with what happens to them. [00:02:48] spk_1: Absolutely. And there's really relevant, particularly with couples, because there's often this kind of blame and going on the You make me angry, this idea off, the other person being responsible for how you feeling. [00:03:01] spk_0: Yeah, absolutely anything is. If another person is responsible for how you feeling. You never really have choice. You just react. It means that we react to experiences in life, and this isn't just in relationships, it's really in. Everything we do is that if we just react, then you never have the ability to influence were not proactive. And when you can find a way of actually taking more control of how you respond. You become proactive because if you suddenly feel angry, when someone says something looks you in a certain way or you feel kind of nervous when you're dating, someone looks uncertain where you access something. Then essentially, what happens is we feel nervous, and that emotional state impacts how we behave. It impacts what we say you have experienced all the time. We work, people who go on present, they do kind of talks in front of groups of people were going us into dates and they get really nervous and then kind of not being able to kind of get the words [00:03:56] spk_1: out on what's really important in this context is that it's not the actual event itself that is causing difficulties. Our interpretation, so that's the bit in the middle is kind of a sense that we make of it. So in the example off, giving a presentation that's a big that's a classical. Lots of people find that very challenging and difficult because the interpretation is that I'll be standing in front of a group of people who will be hostile or will think that I don't make sense or clever enough in what I say, etcetera. So that's the kind of it's the interpretation is the perspective that we choose in relation to this particular situation. [00:04:35] spk_0: Absolutely. And comes with behaviour. Therapy was really first oval develops by back on DH then l s who created rational, emotive behaviour therapy, which is really a progression of some of the original concepts he created the ABC model. So we basically we have the activating events, we have a belief, and then we have a consequence, usually in life. What were aware ofthe Is this an event of this trigger? Something happens like somebody looks at you in a citizen away like you're on a date, and the person kind of looks that you were kind of slightly closed eyes, whatever happens to bay. And then we feel a certain way. We feel kind of nervous, for example, or you stand out in front of a room full of people to a presentation on. Do you feel anxious? [00:05:21] spk_1: Yeah, yeah, Basically. So? So there's the event. Absolutely anxious, etcetera. And then there's a consequence. That's the C S. U have response. There. You start to feel a bit uncomfortable. You start thinking this person. Actually, they're looking at me in a funny way. They probably don't like me. They don't think I'm interesting enough. They don't think I'm attractive enough, et cetera. So that's the AI to see Yeah, situation and in consequence and a bit in the middle is, [00:05:46] spk_0: well, the middle is actually some of the things that he said that happens after as well Serviced Middle is actually the bit where we think they don't like me or they're gonna laugh May. That's actually the bit that makes us feel nervous or anxious. But often it's so quick that we just have the response. We're aware of that internal thoughts. So basically, wait, go into a situation and we have some sort of internal thoughts and thought could be things we say to ourselves. It could be energy is it could be movies we play in our minds. Ondas A result of that, we feel certain way and you know this. The thing is, we need to bring in tow awareness. What is that? Peace in the middle? What's that missing piece of the puzzle? What are the images that I made one of the thoughts that I'm thinking because it's those things that lead to that response. And, you know, I think what's really important with that is we don't randomly think those thoughts we don't randomly in these images is we've learned them. [00:06:41] spk_1: Yes, absolutely. So we've learned that maybe we're not interesting enough that you know that maybe other people might have been an incident, for example, at school, if you were being bullied at school. A lot of you, if you had to talk in front of the whole class and another kids were making fun of you, then there might be a belief forming over time that you know, that what you're saying is just a bit silly or stupid. And you can hold on to that. And you might most of time a lot of the time. Not necessarily where this holding onto this particular belief. [00:07:15] spk_0: Sorry, Tohru, You just described my school, that spirit. [00:07:19] spk_1: That's exactly it. Well, I had that, for example, with math, I was totally useless and massive school. [00:07:33] spk_0: So [00:07:33] spk_1: that's my German accent, so mathematics could do it. A school could do for the life of me and, you know, a lot's off humiliating experiences being called in front of the classroom and then having to do an equation just failing miserably. So I have before example one of my underlying My belief is definitely that I can't do mathematics. Yeah, [00:07:53] spk_0: yeah, absolutely. So way or form these different sort of beliefs. And like I said at school, the school I went to is any time you stood up to say something for the group, people would kind of make fun all kind of mitt jeering sounds. And when I left school, I was terrified of public speaking, you know, speaking in front of this small group within three people terrified me. But now it's what I do for a living. And now, you know, I get a front room full of even 500,000 people, and you know, I don't really feel nervous at all. So you can change. We can change these thoughts. But they you learned them from somewhere so it could be a school that could be from observing a parent. So you eat from an early age. We see in terms of how we kind of related relationship. You know, some of those earliest experiences are where where our parents relate to each other how parents relate to us. Know the messages of parents give us in terms of, you know, it's good to do this. It's bound to do that. You're a good boy, a good girl. You're a good person. However, whatever they might be saying, yes. [00:08:56] spk_1: So these messages like they kind of build over years and years and years, and they're kind of really sort of sink in and become part of us on a lot of the time. Most of the time, we're not necessarily aware of them. We might be aware of some off these thoughts s o They might come to us a little bit more easily if we start to think, actually, what is it that often what I often go to as an automatic thought on? They also some thoughts that we might struggle to access. That kind of worried that a slightly deeper level because they're so normalised for us that we don't even question them that we don't even think. Actually, this is This is a belief system that I could possibly challenge. [00:09:34] spk_0: Yeah, Andi, what? You're talking about belief systems and thoughts we can separate. These were getting t b t we talk about negative automatic thoughts or core beliefs. No next automatic thought might be something like where you're going to do that presentation where we're thinking they're going to laugh at me or they're never gonna kind of like what I'm saying. Where, as you know, these are different thoughts. They're kind of the icing above the kind of core of cake in the chorus basically is called believes. Like, maybe I'm not good enough. Max becomes manifested in all these different types of negative thoughts that basically use some of these little kind of branches from those core beliefs. [00:10:13] spk_1: So negative automatic thoughts. We've got the core beliefs of slightly deeper level, which are which take a quite some time to challenge, to get Teo. But if we challenge them, then we can really transform our behaviour quite significantly on what CBT is really interested in is the Connexion here. Between our thoughts, our feelings, our physiology, how you respond to something and our subsequent behaviour, it's sometimes called the hot cross buns in city. So you have a particular thought, for example, or going go to go, you know, to stand in front of all of these people have got to make a presentation. Well, what are the associative feelings here? That might be that I start to feel uncomfortable. I started quite anxious. The physiological response might be that I noticed my heart is beating a bit faster. I start sweating, etcetera. And what do I do? Well, at the extreme ends, In terms of my behaviour, I might just cancel it. Don't do it all together. Or I might, you know, might fret walking up and down my flat all the time. You know, in this kind of anxious stage, which then feeds again to my thoughts because I'm doing all that my thoughts will be or I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it on so on so forth [00:11:28] spk_0: on because you're feeling anxious the thoughts become more extreme. So because what's called a spiral. So my stunts have been anxious thinking while men like me. So if you have anxiety than I thought because of being anxious and think like well, actually, no, they're not gonna like me. So you film or anxious and it's kind of a become a spiral. Then we avoid situation gets worse, and we can't take another example in dating. Like might think. Well, you know, you can be on a date for a while. You have experience last time might think. Well, you know, they're just not gonna like me on, you know, underneath that we can have a core belief, which is believing you're not attractive enough. But that's manifested. Then maybe that negative automatic thought like they're not like me. What happens is we feel anxious and then feel anxious. And we started there. Well, you know, you start sweating, and then we're thinking, Well, it can't go out like this because I'm sweaty. You're gonna laugh at me and it becomes worse. We end up, just cancelled the day. So we get stuck. We don't go out because that national negative or toxic thought that comes from, like that core belief. Maybe there are no tracks enough. Yeah, I guess. In a way. [00:12:37] spk_1: Yes. So what do we do? We could have started challenging this somewhere. So we look at this hot across barn thoughts, believes physiology, behaviour. We want to kind of start somewhere. So either we kind of look at your thoughts can challenge the thoughts. Is that something can shift the feeling, the associative feelings. There's something on bodily level that we could do to maybe com system down a little bit. Always. Can we start with? The behaviour can be sort of challenge the behaviour a little bit, so that the different entry points in this cycle to address the difficulty that you might be experiencing in certain situations. [00:13:14] spk_0: One week you start doing that now is actually to get a piece paper on you. Write out a few Collins. The first column you write out. What is the event? What is the trigger that leads you to feel a certain way? So it could be, for example, thinking about going on a date or if it's in a relationship on where suddenly you're angry because of something you think upon is done? Basically, might be. Your partner looks at you in a certain way that be the triggering event, then another column where starts think wealth. Easiest thing Teo, Then think about is how you respond. Hey, basically what your emotional reaction ists? You start thinking Well, how are you feeling? In the second column, we might put what you're feeling. I'm so, for example, angry or, for example, nervous. Then we won't find out the link between them. There's nothing okay before that feeling, What is the thoughts? What's the image? What comes to mind? Is it, for example, for that dating example? Well, they're not going to like me. Or if you're looking a certain way, you feel gangrene. That port might be something like they don't respect me. [00:14:20] spk_1: Absolutely. On what is also helpful when you do this, the thoughts on DH feeling recording right down this low intensity of it that could be quite helpful. Swell. How intense is this feeling? On a scale of 1 to 10, I wantto 10 to 100 doesn't matter which scale you use, but just get a sense of how strong is this feeling? How intense is this thought that I'm happy. So once you've done that answer you done three down three columns. The answer to a show feeling thought we then want to look at in the next column. What's this sort of evidence that is support supporting your thoughts? What's the evidence that supporting the idea that your partner doesn't respect you? So is there anything that you can kind of pull out the heads here. Yeah, that's kind of makes it break here. Yes, this is really going on. Or what's the evidence that you know, when you're going on a date that somebody's not gonna like you? Just write that down in this? [00:15:14] spk_0: Yeah. You may find there's no actually that much there gov going on the date. It could be the last time we went on a date. The person never phoned me up. Never got back in touch with me. I might be one situation. Yeah. And then what we do is we move on to the next column, which we hear, what evidence is there to not support this? So against this. So then we start thinking, Well, you know, for example, on the dates it could be. Well, actually, yes. In the past, I've bean on being on several days, and really Well, you know, I've had relationships in the past that were were successful s We start to think, you know, actually, this isn't true that people find me attractive. [00:15:53] spk_1: So And then in the next column, we want to see Is there another way of looking at the situation altogether? You reframe it Can you think of it differently? Is there a different way off? Kind of perceiving what's actually going on. You think differently about the idea that your partner doesn't like you when they look atyou. Anyway, Is there another explanation? Is there a different way of describing this situation? You would write that down in the different way? Might be OK. Well, maybe I overreacted here. Or maybe I misinterpreted. Or maybe my partner was just looking in a funny way because they had a bad day. But they're not having a go at me something like that, a different way of constructing a reality. An interpretation actually [00:16:33] spk_0: happened. Yeah, it could also be, you know, explained what is that kind of thought to believe come from the first place? Like, well, you know, East B, your father to incessant way when he was angry and that do your partners were looking remind you that might be well actually realise that I feel this way. Maybe because it's the way your father used to look at me in this situation, you know, this's completely different. So remembering that that could be really important as well, so sometimes exploring where that kind of thought Whether believe comes from originates from can help you separate what's happened now from response you have in the past because we learn things in the past. But they may not be relevant in today's situation that we're in [00:17:14] spk_1: and something that is often done. CBT is while it's this kind of idea that well, if you asked her friends so if a friend of yours was in the same situation what kind? What would you say to them? What kind of advice would you give them? How would you describe the situation to them? And that might enable you to kind of step away a little bit from yourself, so to speak and look at it from a different perspective? [00:17:35] spk_0: Yeah, [00:17:36] spk_1: Yeah, We given example also for the dating situation. So in terms of constructing a different interpretation, a different way of looking at the situation, dating situations also kind of think Well, actually, you know, I should try it, OK, there is no guarantee here that the date is going to work, but really, I know there isn't enough evidence to show me that this other person is not interested in me and maybe I have to give a bit more time. [00:18:02] spk_0: Yeah, absolutely. And also there's there's kind of old ways of reframing a Houston sales in sales. Is that refrain? Which is every knows, one poster, too? Yes, you have to go through, you know, used to get that. Yes. And, you know, and also remember as well if if somebody isn't interested in you, it probably is that essentially, it's not necessarily you something to do with them on. You know, you you like you don't like you, but in that case, they're probably not a good person to get into a relationship with because they're not going to be a great partner in the first place. But when you find that person he did kind of connects with it, that's that's gonna be worth waiting for, Andi. Just alongside that, as well as its not just the thought is actually taking action, because what happens is the more you avoid doing something, the more you get anxious about it. So will you avoid something you essentially feel a bit of kind of calmness. You feel a bit of kind of, you know, actually, you know, it's like soothing you a little bit on actually reinforces the tendency to avoid it. So the more you avoid something you feel anxious about, the greater the anxiety becomes if you want to get over the anxiety, what he really wants to start to face those things starts kind of with smaller things at first, gradually kind of work through. For example, if kind of I don't know what in terms of dating thing, what might be something the person most anxious bounce [00:19:25] spk_1: Well, it's this sort of like they like me and that's all from this summer. [00:19:29] spk_0: Yeah, yeah, might be like, you know, if you're really terrified about the idea of going on a blind date, took meeting somebody that you met on the Internet, you might start with kind of like bothersome social groups. You could join where you can just meet a group of people without the thought of having to date people. So you just get used to kind of a general socialisation, which again, after the pandemic, people haven't really being kind of mixing. So, you know, just getting into a situation without pressure. First of all, I might help you, then feel more confident. Just generally can I talk to, you know, and then you can move onto, you know, for example, dating, which makes it a little bit easier because you taking that initial step. [00:20:10] spk_1: It's a difficult one. Was dating dating can be groups Come Rogers wobble there because I kicked. It s oh, yes, I'm dating. It is a little more difficult because you don't know necessarily what is going to happen at the other end. You know, you're kind of you don't know what the other person is interested in your nose. That's always a risk isn't dating comes with some sort of risk ultimately, but it's the interpretation again, it's not necessarily taking it as rejection or as I'm not good enough there awhile sorts of factors that come into play here about whether somebody finds you attractive or whether you find someone attractive. We talk about that in our other podcasts at length about what might attract you to another person. So So it's kind of just sort of, you know, step by step, sort of thinking a little bit about. Also, Visualising might be really helpful. Actually, that's another thing that you can do to prepare for a date to kind of Imagine yourself in this and now are you? What are you going to be wearing? What are you going to be saying? What would you be eating if you go out for a meal? Or might you be drinking if you're going for a drink or when you'd be walking to kind of really feel yourself into this situation that sometimes also helps to ease the anxiety a little bit because you can't already plated through in your mind and you're getting some, you know, some sort of exposed yourself to the situation, so to speak. Even if it's in your imagination, that might be another step forward here. [00:21:39] spk_0: Yeah, absolutely. So essentially, just to kind of re scrape some of the things we covered is it's about thinking. What are the thoughts that go on before you actually have that emotional response? And when you become aware of them, you can change them when you change and that giving more choice in how you feel how you respond and subsequently what you do to change your behavior's so you don't have to respond in certain ways and then give you a really kind of freedom on DH pro activity in terms of the things that you're doing, whether it's in a relationship, your end, where it's finding a relationship where it's anything that we're doing, like going to your presentation is about having that choice and also remembering that when you change your behaviour, that also impacts how you feel doing change thoughts. We can change the images, but actually just taking action. Getting up and changing your behaviour will also impact your emotions on that will impact your thoughts so we can influence it from different points off. That kind of a diagram of the thoughts, the feelings, the behaviours. We don't have to go with thoughts. [00:22:45] spk_1: No, absolutely. We sometimes have to start with behaviour. Just put something to the test, so to speak, kind of test out in a particular doing experiments, so to speak and test out my beliefs really true here. Is this really what's happening here? Always another way of looking at it. So just trying something out sometimes to expose yourself to the very thing that you're scared off. I'm noticing that there might be a really positive outcome. You there might be something that I'm experiencing here, which actually is really quite nice. Well, then enable you to kind of shift the cycle and have different thoughts and feelings, etcetera. So as we say, you can start in any office different points here in this particular cycle, they allow helpful. But as Tom said, absolutely there can be changed, not set in stone. They're not fixed this particular cycle. All of this is not fixed. Your thoughts are not fixed necessary your feelings, your behaviours. They can be changed. And that's a really lovely positive message that you can take away from from podcast today, that there's a lot of room here, too. Change all of this, [00:23:48] spk_0: absolutely. So go and try outs. And if you want to find out more about how you can improve your relationships, pleased you head over to our website the relationship maze dot com, where we've got lots more resources to help you. We have also have our online course relationship Maze. Please also subscribed to this podcast. Please share it with people. Who do you think my benefits on? We look forward to speaking with you again next next week. [00:24:13] spk_1: Very much looking forward to take care and see you then. Bye [00:24:16] spk_0: bye.